The Hindu Business Line : `Talk business without cobwebs in the mind' — Mr Majyd Aziz, President, MHG group of companies

Mr Majyd Aziz, a textile tycoon and President of the MHG group of companies in Pakistan, is a great votary of improving Indo-Pak ties for the mutual benefit of both countries. In an interview to Business Line in Karachi he discussed a range of issues from Indo-Pak business ties to why Pakistan admires Indian politicians.

Excerpts from the interview:

How do you read the Indo-Pak peace initiative in the background of trade ties?

I have always been a big proponent of regional trade. Over the years we have missed the bus because we have been trying all sorts of things but have not tried to solve our problems through trade ties. With our relations on a roller-coaster ride, the people of the two countries are unsure of what is going on and there is suspicion.

Take cricket, for instance; we had a needless controversy, and got Mr (Yashwant) Sinha, Mr Vajpayee and Gen Musharraf involved, all for a mere game of cricket!

Personally, I don't care whether we play cricket or not, but people on both sides get excited, as though we don't have anything else to get excited about.

Our politicians think they are Atlas and responsible for the whole world. These Johnnies think they know best. One day, we see Samjhauta Express being revived, and the next day we count the number of heads for giving visas. Look at the pettiness in our relations.

So you blame the politicians?

Totally. The political leadership of both the countries is myopic and the politicians live in their own cocoons.

This is the 21st Century; the world has gone ahead. We have missed invaluable opportunities because of our short-sighted, negative thinking, and our inability to understand each other outside the political environment.

Do you think the business community has let down the two countries? Should it not have prevailed on the politicians to improve ties long, long ago?

When it comes to India and Pakistan, there are sensitive issues involved, and Kashmir is a very sensitive issue. Both countries have made this a prestige point.

I believe the solution will come out of initiatives on Kashmir. Your feel-good factor, your CBMs, exchange of delegations, trade — everything will depend on this. The time has come for the Indian leadership to take the initiative to bring the Kashmir problem to a logical conclusion.

How?

It can be done. There is no problem in the world that cannot be solved. I am a businessman and do not know what is discussed behind the scenes.

But people are getting killed. Let us think of their families.

For the last 56 years we have splurged on defence at the cost of education, health-care and growing unemployment.

We cannot move around, we cannot fly over each other's countries, we cannot even talk to each other. If I talk to an Indian, am I a spy, traitor or agent?

Did they call you one?

Oh yes, at Friday sermons, when I said India ke saath dosti karo. Now the Mullahs and their top leaders are going to India. Maybe I am ahead of my time. My tailor says you come up with designs and ideas that come into Pakistan after three years.

I feel it is time to consider trade as a vehicle through which the region can progress. We have talked about SAFTA and given some date. I say, why 2006? Start it from today. Many things can be resolved on a priority basis.

The western nations will find all kinds of barriers against us — environment, child labour, human rights — and our costs will go up trying to meet their standards of social accountability.

Of course, we will have to address these issues too, but we, the SAARC countries, are a big force; let us trade and exchange expertise. If you are good at something, I'll get that from you, and vice-versa. Let us form joint ventures and take on the world.

We did that on the rice front; earlier, we used to fight, but we worked together and made more money. It can be done. Why do we have to complicate matters? Solutions can be surprisingly simple if only we could think positively.

Can you give an example?

India and Sri Lanka signed an FTA despite all kinds of political interference. What has happened? Trade has gone over $1 billion. When we go to Sri Lanka for spices, they tell us sorry, we don't have any, hamney to sab India ko bhej diya.

You are talking of a bridge across the road. Sri Lanka is going places; once they solve their ethnic problem, it will get better. Bangladesh and India want to sign such a pact. Nepal and Bhutan are already with India.

Pakistan is the only country that does not have an FTA with anybody. A united SAARC can become an example for the rest of the world.

Which it has failed to do so far.

Because of Indo Pak problems, the element of trust is not there in SAARC as yet. If we two have a problem, the rest of the SAARC countries should put pressure on us. They should not be subservient to either.

How was the recent SAARC summit looked upon by your colleagues in the business world?

We were very happy. We in Pakistan have to be more positive. India has gone far, far ahead. We can't fight India on the trade level; we have to work together.

What is your estimate of the unofficial trade between India and Pakistan?

I would not be exaggerating when I say under $2 billion.

Machinery, fabrics, tyres, medicines, dyes and chemicals — everything is coming. We are just trying to be ostriches. Who says the borders are not porous? I think LoC stands for `line of convenience'.

Look at the petty thinking; some people say if we do trade with India, India will make money and use it against Muslims in Kashmir. To which I say we do $2.25 billion trade with America and it bombed Afghanistan and Iraq.

We sell goods to the US, and many of them are Jewish companies, but nobody has a problem with that. We go to Saudi Arabia for Haj and bring back goods, many of them made by Jewish companies. That is halal (legitimate).

But if I want to get machinery or software or an idea from India, then I am a bad guy.

But is your clergy, the mullahs, that important?

Our problem is that our clergy is fixated on just Kashmir. Take the Friday Sermon. Ask any clergy to talk on education, he has no idea. Or against smuggling, social issues or evils, he has no knowledge.

He just wants to send you to hell and he thinks that by raising the issue of Kashmir, he will become the saviour of the nation and the defender of the faith, which is all hogwash. And we have political clergy who have forgotten about true religion and become self-centred people.

We allow Chinese smuggled goods to come in lekin India accha nahi lagta (India is not good). As a businessman, if I have to buy a mobile telephone, should I buy from Finland, Brazil or India, if the quality is comparable?

India is next door, my cost is lower on transportation, I may get it cheaper and it is fast. But this kind of thinking is not universal here among the non-business community.

What about the business community?

They, of course, say do trade and make money. From 1990 I have been saying let us go to Bangalore and see what those people are doing on the IT front.

India has had a head-start and gets a lot of business in IT. If Indian service providers do not have enough qualified people to meet their requirements, they might shop around and we can provide that.

We don't mind Indians taking the orders, let them sub-contract to us, we'll learn from them.

Now they are singing the same song; but at that time I was considered a bad boy. I say let us open up the mind. There should be no cobwebs in the mind, particularly when you are talking business.

It is not that India wants war with us. India is gradually becoming a superpower and wants to show trinkets like missiles and other big systems to prove its status to the world. Why should we get excited?

Russia had nuclear bombs; did it use them when it was going down the drain?

We saw in Islamabad that a small step taken by India became a giant step for SAARC. If India can take the initiative and go two steps forward, I'm sure Pakistan will reciprocate more than that.

This is the best signal we can send to the world.

Your core sector is textiles. How is Pakistan doing on this front?

We are 65 per cent in textiles, and I say we can make it 75 per cent. Textiles does not mean only fabrics; it includes sofas, curtains, carpets, towels, bed-sheets, and so on.

What about outsourcing of textiles by retail giants like Walmart?

Walmart is outsourcing from here. Unfortunately, we have only 65 Walmart certified companies. China has 1,500.

What does Walmart outsource from here?

Garments, towels and all kinds of home textiles. J. C. Penney was here last fortnight; it is buying a lot and is going to directly import over $100 million worth of goods. Walmart is going to put up 500 outlets in Central Asia.

The closest point is Pakistan and even if they buy $100,000 worth of goods for each store, it comes to $5 billion. Even if they buy only 20 per cent from Pakistan, we get business of $1 billion.

There are a lot more companies out there in the market for textiles — incuding garments, knits, towels, bedspreads, upholstery. We can also supply them grey cloth; because of environmental issues they might want to use their own colours for dying.

What about Indo-Pak trade?

Today, our machinery or engineering could be affected but tomorrow, there could be joint ventures, buybacks, outsourcing — so much can be done to make both the countries economically strong.

In Silicon Valley, India has a lot of contacts and can help us. There is already some kind of co-operation going on; it is off the record but it is there and this could be formalised.

In India there is a lot of talk about the "feel-good" factor at this time. Is it present here too?

Things are certainly looking better; the economic ministers know their job, and I admire Gen Musharraf for having picked the right men for the job. Our economic policies are on the right track; but unfortunately, we are lagging in implementation.

Our babu mentality is still very much there and for every positive change in policy, there are two negative changes. I call it the cha-cha-cha syndrome; one step forward and two steps backward.

But the time has certainly come when the government will have to think of increasing entrepreneurship and encouraging businessmen in order to solve problems like unemployment.

The Indian general elections are in the offing? Are Pakistani businessmen concerned about the colour or contours of the next government in India?

Right now, we are busy watching John Kerry and George Bush. Earlier, of course, we knew who is a Joshi or a Jogi. But there is a lot to learn from Indian politicians. Of course, now we too have a free press where you can openly criticise the government.

Once again I salute Gen Musharraf for telling the politicians to keep their hands off the press.

You mentioned Indian politicians; what do you admire about them?

They don't call each other traitors at the drop of a hat as we do here, particularly those in the opposition.

Also, when your government is formed and the oath-taking is on, we will find everybody is there, both present and past. Here, those who lose boycott; we have such petty, juvenile politicians. We have a juvenile democracy, we are actually in the kindergarten of democracy.

Of course, you too have politicians who play the anti-Pak card just as we have those playing the anti-India card. But your politicians are so simple.

They come in their dhotis and sit on the ground. That is why Laloo Yadav was such a big hit here.

Here, our politicians come in big Pajeros and Land Cruisers and behave as though they own the whole country.

They come with gun-toting security guards and flaunt their power. Your guys don't do that.

They are more discreet. As for your next government, we are sure that whichever party comes to power, the peace process will continue; after all, there is not much difference between what Mr Vajpayee or Ms Sonia Gandhi are saying on this issue.

We realise there will be diehards too, as you have so many parties.

What is certain is that a coalition government will rule India. One request to your Bollywood; please get rid of anti-Pak war movies. You may score a few brownie points but they do more harm than good. Instead, let us have Shahrukh and Aishwarya, or some other good-looking girls, dance and sing. Yaha par to koi music sunney hi nahi deta!