The Hindu Business Line : `Gujarat, belonging to backward'

The first student from Gujarat University to get an LL.M. from Harvard Law School (1963), Mr Girish Patel, has few friends in his State. Not surprising, considering his "allergy to the RSS" and strong opposition to the BJP's communal politics. "If I were a Muslim I would have been arrested long ago, for what I have been saying", this senior advocate told Business Line in an interview, in his modest house in Ahmedabad.

Excerpts from the interview:

How do you read the polarisation between Hindus and Muslims in this election? Who do you think has an edge — the BJP or the Congress?

It is very difficult to judge. But the Hindu wave we had feared does not seem to be there. North and Central Gujarat have been always notoriously communal. But Saurashtra, Kutch and South Gujarat, which were not widely affected by the communal riots, may not display rampant communal feeling.

Overall, Gujarat has always been a communal State. In pre-Independence India, the Muslim League was a strong factor here. But after Independence, many top Muslim leaders migrated to Pakistan. Subsequently, the opposition to the Congress came from the rightist forces and not the Communists, who never had a presence in Gujarat.

Well, it has been a very capitalistic society...

It is also a conservative and casteist society, apparently peaceful, but with an in-built violence which people do not, or cannot, see. It has a long history of violence against women and Dalits and exploitation of tribals and backward classes. But though the hatred was inbuilt, there was never a need for its manifestation.

When people ask me Gujarat mei yeh sab kyon hua (why did all this happen in Gujarat?), I am surprised. Because yeh sab Gujarat mei hi hona chahiye (it could happen only here), because Gujarat is really a very peculiar combination of a highly conservative, casteist and inherently violent society. It is an advanced State belonging to the backward, with a large number of poor people.

What will be the main plank on which people will vote — economic issues or communal factors?

Originally, I was very pessimistic and had written off Gujarat. But now I think sobriety has returned and, slowly but surely, people have once again started thinking of socio-economic problems. So, it is not necessarily Hindu versus Muslim, except in highly communally surcharged areas. The upper and upper middle-class Hindus will vote along communal lines.

I do not have faith in the educated people. Lok gaaliyan detey hein garib ko, lekin desh ko barbad kiya hei educated logon ney (People curse the poor, but the country is being destroyed by the educated).

They are highly careeristic and opportunistic; and may be literate or trained but are not educated. They may have trained as lawyers, doctors, and so on, but the mindset remains the same. I cannot talk to any of these people for more than five minutes because immediately Muslim, Dalit, etc., comes into the conversation. What can you talk to people who are not open to facts? Even if you tell them that the Muslim population has not increased in Gujarat over the years they keep voicing the same prejudices.

Like paanch ke pachchees!

Yes. They say four wives. Where is the truth in that today? To maintain one wife is difficult enough! These images are built up by the so-called educated who do not understand either the Muslims or society as a whole. As a result, there is no interaction between the communities. If you do a sampling of Hindus, only one out of 10 will have a Muslim friend. Without even really knowing educated and cultured Muslims, the upper-class Hindus keep saying hamarey mein aisa nahi hei (we do not have such things). When they say this, they talk of the poor and uneducated Muslims and their "hamarey" never includes the poor Dalits or tribals. The Dalits and Adivasis become `Hindus' for them only during riots!

But has not the Congress also played vote-bank politics vis-à-vis religion?

I was never in the Congress nor have any admiration for it. But it was Jawaharlal Nehru who first drew the attention of this country in the 1950s to the danger of majoritarian communalism. He was the first to point out that minority communalism is bad, but majority communalism is fascism. But this aspect was totally ignored. When we formed the Lok Sangarsh Samiti two months ago, the question arose, whom should we vote for. We had a real problem because many of us are anti-Congress. I have never voted in my life.

Why not?

Because I don't want to choose a lesser evil. The tragedy of our country is that instead of deciding who is the better person, you have to decide who is the lesser evil. What worse plight can there be?

So going back to the defeat BJP strategy...

We said the Congress might have a diluted but bogus ideology but Gujarat does not have a simple communal problem. There have been communal riots here in 1969 and then in 1985. But those were out of communal prejudices; it was not a matter of imposition of a Hindutva ideology as now. Whatever its faults, the Congress is not committed to a communal ideology. It would never say that we want a Hindu state.

But Vaghela is also adopting a soft Hindutva strategy.

It is not an ideology; it is just a vote-catching tactic, which is not new at all. But compared to the BJP, it is neither well-organised nor does it have a wide cadre base.

But Sonia Gandhi is playing her cards very smartly.

That is the main problem of the Congress or the larger world of politics today... that you are only playing cards but cannot usher in any movement. Indira Gandhi played her cards well... garibi hatao... and Sonia too is playing her cards well. But I am happy she is doing so now.

If the Congress wins and forms a government in Gujarat, what will it mean for the State?

I do not see it in positive terms. I say these communal forces must be defeated. I do not consider this a fight between the BJP and the Congress. I see this fight between two visions of the country. Even if the BJP wins, it should not get a sense of victory. If it wins, but by 10 seats fewer, I will consider that a victory.

Already, social and economic issues have started working and caste issues will also kick in. In Gujarat, among the Dalits, Adivasis, backward and Muslims, there has been no progressive movement. There was a complete vacuum and that place has been taken over by the BJP except for the Muslims.

So what about the future?

What frightens me is that while such physical violence against Muslims cannot be repeated elsewhere... After all you can't physically destroy 10-15 crore Muslims, Gujarat has shown an example to the rest of the country of how to economically destroy Muslims. . Unfortunately, all this happened at a time when Muslims were in a take-off position, and had changed. A new generation of Muslims had come, which no longer talked about Pakistan.

Do you think that if this mistrust continues Gujarat will become the next Kashmir?

It has already been made into a Kashmir; that is Modi's greatest achievement. Gujarat has become a laboratory of Hindutva because the BJP, right from its Jan Sangh days, has been confused on what ideology to adopt to capture power. Should it be diluted or hardcore Hindutva? Look at its history. Gandhian nationalism, Gandhian socialism, cultural nationalism, hardcore Hindutva.

Response can be sent to rasheeda@thehindu.co.in

Send this article to Friends by E-Mail
Comment on this article to BLFeedback@thehindu.co.in

Stories in this Section
Climate convention — Blowing hot and cold

Trading with Russia

Telecom markets — Ringing in effective regulations

Are auditors the most-wanted?

Mirror, mirror on the wall

D is for disclaimer

Re-engineer public institutions

`Gujarat, belonging to backward'

Social security for Indians

Political reforms

Disinvestment of oil PSUs