The Hindu Business Line : `The human being is bigger than a profit-making entity'

I am bringing in another business category. The business to do good to people without any expectation of taking profit. So profit is not why I do business; I do it because it touches people's lives and helps people. MR MUHAMMAD YUNUS, MANAGING DIRECTOR, GRAMEEN BANK

The man who reached credit to the poor women of Bangladesh over 30 years ago still retains the enthusiasm for his job and the innovation he brings to it. The Peace Nobel has discernibly energised Mr Muhammad Yunus, Grameen Bank Managing Director, as he jokes: "At least the big economists will take us more seriously now". In an interaction with Business Line, Mr Muhammad Yunus, discussed a range of issues from social business enterprise to a possible political role in the future.

Excerpts from the interview:

You've got the Nobel for Peace rather than economics; that enlarges the scope of micro-credit. Does it also put more responsibility on you... Micro-credit and poverty alleviation bringing world peace?

It does, add another dimension to micro-credit. Poverty is such a big problem because it creates destabilising sources in society and between societies. Take, for example, Mexico and the US... A lot of people come in, you try to stop it by building walls and still cannot do it and this creates tensions between the two countries. Just as between Bangladesh and India, it creates tension. Media reports say a lot of Bangladeshis are coming into India and Bangladesh denies it.

So, if you have economic opportunities in your own country you don't have to move in search of livelihood.

Absolutely, and even if you move, you're welcomed. Like when people move from France to Germany they don't complain! But when Asians come they get very uptight! So it's a question of the quality of people. If the quality differs much then people say our life is disturbed by your presence. If we can improve the quality of life, the tension between people, states and countries will go. Also, Mother Teresa got a Nobel Prize, that was also related to poverty, so it's not a new concept. But the Nobel makes it well known that micro-credit is linked to poverty, it is not a sector to make money in and you're trying to help people get out of poverty.

You mentioned Mother Teresa... Do you think there is something in the Bengali gene... Rabidranath Tagore, Amartya Sen, C. V. Raman, who worked mostly in Kolkata, and now you...

(Laughs) Maybe there's something in the soil, or the water... .

So you think there is a direct relationship between violence and poverty?

Yes, destitution and frustrations cause violence.

If this is so, then why does more warmongering occur among the richer nations?

There are other conflicts of interest; competition, the market, rivalry between businesses.

Micro-credit beneficiaries are mostly women, who are the worst affected victims of war and violence. Do you think that poor women can promote world peace? Does this add another dimension to the power of micro-credit?

I do think so. Women and children are the worst victims of confrontation and violence; they can't fight and are caught in between, and everybody takes advantage of their situation. So if they are empowered they will be the first ones to resist any excesses and applications of violence between or within societies.

Women's empowerment can manifest itself in many directions; one, it brings political power and you hear the voice of women in politics, either as voters or as contestants themselves. Many of the Grameen borrowers contest local elections; and in the last election of the 12,000 seats reserved for women, more than 3,000 were won by the poor women of Grameen Bank. So empowerment leads to political power and political power leads to decision-making.

Do you think these women will bring Grameen values into politics; at the President's reception you expressed concern about corruption in Bangladesh...

I do hope so. These women have grown up with Grameen culture and know they're not supposed to be involved in corruption. I do hope that as they get into more and more positions of responsibility, they will carry that culture with them, and pass it on to their children.

Were you surprised that you got the Nobel for Peace and not Economics?

No, because when people were speculating, they considered both. Many people who wanted to nominate talked about peace and economics. I never got involved with it, saying this is your business.

How did the Grameen women celebrate?

Oh, they are very happy. Even last evening, when I returned home after the reception at the President's house, I started getting telephone calls from Grameen borrowers in remote places. They said they were so happy to watch me on TV and said they were celebrating by distributing sweets and asked when I was going to visit them.

You were quite forthright in your speech there.

Yes, I told the President that you have to be bold, people don't like weak governments, they like strong, proactive governments, you take strong action, don't just sit there because you are in a temporary (caretaker) position.

What next? You are now talking of social business enterprises.

Yes, I'm saying that the concept of business we have designed or formulated is extremely narrow; a vehicle for people to make money. The only reason you start a business is to make money and maximise profits. That's what we've been told and that's how we've been trained. I'm saying that the human being is much bigger than just a profit-making entity, and I am bringing in another business category. The business to do good to people without any expectation of taking profit. So profit is not why I do business; I do it because it touches people's lives and helps people.

I can run a hospital to serve people, so that the poor can get good eye-care, health-care. I build it not to make money but so that people can overcome their health problems. And it can run as a business in that it can cover all its costs and, if there is a surplus, that surplus stays with the company to expand, get new equipment. And the investor only gets his/her money back. Never a profit.

Are there people who would agree to this kind of business?

I'd answer that question this way. There are people who run hospitals as a charity proposition, giving away everything... So this idea is not as wild as it looks. Because if you can give away the entire capital, you can do something where you get back your money but the service remains and runs on its own steam. And after you've got back your money you put it into another hospital, and so on.

So with the same capital you have several hospitals, whereas with charity hospitals the money disappears and every year you have to go out with a begging bowl to find more money to run them. Which doesn't give it strength. But this kind of money gives it strength.

Have you started such a hospital?

We're going to start two hospitals in collaboration with Madurai's Arvind Eye Hospital; we're sending our doctors and nurses to be trained at Arvind.

Tell us a little bit about the Grameen-Danone venture, which is being inaugurated by Zinedine Zidane on Wednesday...

That is again a social business. When I met the Chairman of Danone at a Paris restaurant — he had invited me to understand what Grameen Bank was all about — I said why don't we create a Grameen-Danone company in Bangladesh? He said to do what? So, I said why don't you make yoghurt, only this would be fortified yoghurt, packed with vitamins and all the micro-nutrients. And he said immediately, all right, I agree.

He didn't ask any more questions. So I added: `But this will be a social business'. So he asked what does a social business mean? I said it means you invest money and we invest money and you can take your investment money back but no profit and it would be the same for us. If profit comes, it will stay with the company for expansion. And he shook my hand on that. This will be a prototype and once it is successful we'll have such plants all over the country in about 10 years.

Will you be able to take such business models out of Bangladesh?

Oh we are talking global. Bangladesh is only an example, because people debate whether anybody would be interested in such a thing. Now I can answer. Do you think Danone is crazy? If Danone can do it, anybody can do it.

Intel has also contacted us for a programme of social business; how to reach IT to the poor by designing new chips, new gadgets, etc.

What about Microsoft?

We haven't talked to Microsoft yet, but Bill Gates is very supportive of what we do. I met him at the Clinton Global Initiative last month.

The Clintons would have been thrilled with your Nobel?

Oh yes, they are very happy. He never gave up, he started talking about it right from 1987.

Coming to Bangladesh's politics, you have indicated that you might float your own party; do you have political ambitions?

Not right now. Because I was involved in the "clean candidate campaign" for the coming elections, some political parties said instead of just talking about it from the civil society side, join politics and form a political party.

So while going to Seoul, reporters asked me at the airport will you do that, and I said, if necessary I'll do it to emphasise my commitment to the clean candidate campaign. And next day there were headlines that he is forming his own political party.

Which you are not doing?

No, at least not in the near future. Elections are just three months away, and I have a huge responsibility before me at Grameen right now.

I'm told a lot of well-wishers are advising you against such a move...

Yes, both ways. Some say do it, and some say don't.

Have you ever wondered why Gandhiji never got a Nobel?

I have no idea. It is really a surprising thing. In his name a lot of people are getting peace prizes but the originator of the concept didn't get it.

As a Nobel Peace laureate, do you have any thoughts about the violence in Iraq, Afghanistan?

Well, just like any citizen, I'm very concerned about what's happening in Iraq.

Are you also worried about the backlash... the reaction from the Islamic world... because Muslims think that Islam is under threat? The stereotype of Muslims are terrorist...

Of course. And it is there that the Nobel helps because a name like `Muhammad' getting the Prize upsets some people and you get a second look... are you a potential threat? But it also shows people that not all Muhammads are threats... not all Muhammads are bad people.

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