The Hindu Business Line : Business meets at strip clubs! Business meets at strip clubs!

People should be able to work and advance without being subject to unwelcome and offensive sexual activity. Linda Gordon Howard
A lot of difficulty in dealing with sexual harassment comes when it is being done by high-level persons; everybody knows that they’re doing it…

Linda Gordon Howard

Rasheeda Bhagat

At the workshop organised for senior managers at the MindTree Consulting office in Bangalore, there are plenty of doubts and questions, a little scepticism, but lots of interest to know more about the subject — sexual harassment. Linda Gordon Howard has flown in only that morning from New York, after missing an international and a domestic flight. But neither the jet lag nor the stress associated with missed flights is evident as she begins the training session.

Her first message is loud and clear — the legal damages that corporates in the US have to pay for sexual harassment are getting fatter by the day, and $100 million fines are not uncommon for big corporations. So, if you sexually harass a colleague, or do nothing about it as a manager when a complaint is brought before you, your company is not going to like you, because if he/she goes to court, you can be sure the fine is going to be steep, she warns.

An attorney, Linda has worked at the White House and the US Senate in the 1980s and is currently a global consultant on discrimination at the workplace and her practical methods of addressing sexual harassment have been applied in several organisations. Her book, The Sexual Harassment handbook was published in February 2007.

Excerpts from the interview:

What are the most common forms of sexual harassment taking place in the US today? What kind of complaints do experts like you get?

The most common complaints come, by and large, from male dominated environments like Wall Street or construction, banking and financial services. The major complaint is that it is a wildly sexual environment out there, that there are parties and business meetings that will be held at strip clubs.

Gosh!

That a business-sponsored golf tournament had models in bikinis standing in the hall. Just a generalised sexual environment of a boy’s club gone wild.

So the women working for these companies feel very uncomfortable?

It’s worse than uncomfortable. You want to imagine that it’s your job to service a client you’re working with in Wall Street and you want to take care of the client you are assigned. The client comes from another town and where your company is going to take him for dinner and entertain him is a strip club! And you have to choose if you’re going to participate in that business meeting and watch a striptease. Also, this happens in places where a lot of liquor is served and sex toys hang on the walls and the men think that it is funny.

What do most women choose to do in such an environment?

Most women say nothing or quit. And then you get one or two brave souls who say we’ve got to do something about it. And then they will bring a complaint.

On sexual harassment?

Yes. If she is going to participate in the business activity, she has to be present there. And that means a sexual activity has now become a part of her employment. And women have a right not to be subjected to that; people should be able to work and advance in their employment without being subject to unwelcome and offensive sexual activity. If she liked it as much as the men, it wouldn’t be a problem.

But why do you think this is happening? Did such wild business parties take place 10 or 15 years ago? Is it because of the tough competition that you have to roll out the red carpet for your client, give him anything it takes?

Oh, it has been happening all along, I don’t think it is new. But what might be new, might be the extraordinary profits… starting from the ‘80s, the huge money that people make, which results in extravagant treatment and very often — I don’t say for all men — but for many men extravagant entertainment means sex.

Is it expected as part of the entertainment package?

Oh yes, especially in the big cities and the question is: ‘Where are the girls?’

That happens everywhere. Take away the country label and most business cultures are the same. It just takes different forms.

I’m not saying that women have not served as sex objects; it would be foolish to say that. And I am not suggesting that men should not be interested in sex and in women. But when you’re talking about employment and once you have women in the workplace, they have no choice but to put up with what goes on there. That’s why we have these rules. And there are women who are trying to shut down strip clubs, but I’m not one of them. That’s not what I am advocating. What I’m talking about is that when you have a woman who needs to work like everybody, feed her children, pay the rent and for healthcare, etc, she has a right to be engaged in employment, and sexual harassment is an obstacle to fair employment. There you are trying to participate in your job and you’ve got this obstacle to your enjoying your employment.

What other forms does sexual harassment take in the workplace?

There is sexual teasing where men will actually touch or rub or grab women. It happens where women are working in manufacturing plants or as corrections officers in prisons. Rubbing and patting… another form is sexual screensavers on computers. These can be very lewd… If you walk into your boss’s office and there is a lot of sexual material on his computer or wall, you have to put up with seeing that. You can’t blindfold yourself!

Why do men indulge in such behaviour in the office?

Because they just plain like it and unless there is some compelling reason not to do it, they are going to keep doing it.

But are they not sensitive to women around who might not like it?

Women don’t speak up and say they don’t like it. That’s one thing. And another is that they (many men) do a lot of things that people don’t like. They talk to people in ways that people don’t like. That’s why the law has to impose a penalty; once they find out that it’s expensive and you have to pay, then they’ll start to take it down.

As more women enter the workplace and take on the role of bosses, reverse discrimination too is taking place. What kind of complaints come from men?

There was this woman who liked this young man and wrote him a note saying she liked him. He ignored the first note and she wrote another saying she really liked him and then he went to her and said ‘look I’m not interested so you need to cut this out’ and then she came by and talked to him, and said if you only understood me, etc. So he really began to feel very uncomfortable and came to me to have a chat…

What kind of a background…

It was a legal firm. I talked to her and it was sorted out. I told her if he got another letter we’d fire her.

Do you find attitudes changing and companies coming forward to train their personnel?

In the US almost every company provides some training. In California, for example, you have to provide two hours of training every year for every employee on what sexual harassment is.

Do you find CEOs sensitive to this problem?

I don’t think many CEOs have been trained or are interested... most of them get out of it. The interest comes from the HR people, because they get complaints that need to be addressed.

You mentioned in the workshop that companies now have to pay huge fines… in millions of dollars, and this is going to ensure they sit up and take notice.

Of course. A lot of difficulty in dealing with sexual harassment comes when it is being done by high-level persons; everybody knows that they’re doing it… There was this case of an older lawyer in a law firm; when he would talk to the secretaries he would pinch their nipples.

Gosh…

I’m not talking about anything subtle, it was blatant and people knew he did it. And secretaries had complained about it. But because he was so valuable to the firm, nothing was done about it until somebody finally sued them.

How much did the firm have to pay?

I don’t remember exactly, but it was in millions of dollars. Such cases come up once every 2-3 years.

You mean similar offences, like pinching of nipples?

Pinching of nipples, snapping of bra straps. And what you have are these older men who everybody figures: ‘Well, they will never really learn’. Firms are scared because of the money they bring in and are not willing to show them the door. But, it is more expensive for the firm when it is proved that everybody knew it was happening. That’s when you get punitive damages. So an award of $3 million ends up at $12-15 million because they knew about it and didn’t do anything and allowed it to continue.

As more women come into the workplace, do you think this problem will get less or only worse?

First it will get worse before it gets better because right now women in the workplace are not talking. But they will start to tell their stories. Also, as more women come into the workplace there will be even more women to harass but there will be a learning period. And then it will start to even itself out.

Were there any surprises for you in this workshop… at the questions you got?

The only surprise was the desire on the part of the managers to take care of the problem themselves. Also surprising was the concern over betraying the woman’s trust.

But it’s a cultural thing, because in the Indian context stigma is attached to such things and however confidential you try to keep it, it tends to get out. If it does, and she is single, it might even affect her marital prospects. That’s why the managers were asking you what if she wants the whole thing kept confidential and seeks a quiet transfer.

But the difficulty with that is that if this man is really doing it, he’s going to do it to someone else. And unless there is investigation and documentation, you can’t count hers as the first report.

I guess it really is a cultural thing… when a young woman is raped we blame her… that she must have done something and brought it upon herself. Or, that such things don’t happen to good girls. But if more women speak up, then you can’t stigmatise everybody. That is the point of stigma.

Do you get complaints from small organisations too… a small store, a bookshop?

Oh yes, in my book there is the story of a female insurance agent. One day he invited her to come into the library to watch a movie that he said would ‘loosen’ her up. There were only two people working there and she was the secretary. We still don’t know; it might have been a yoga movie to loosen her up! But I don’t think so and neither did she. She left work that day and never went back and never told anyone and only told me when I met her at a social event and gave me permission to use her story in my book. In the US, for the federal law to apply, you need to have 16 or more employees. The State law will apply to four or more, for less than four, the law doesn’t even apply.

Is any particular race or community — Asian or black women — more vulnerable to sexual harassment?

Immigrant women tend to be more vulnerable.

Apart from American companies, companies from which other countries consult you?

My book was published in February and one of my first calls was from Subroto (Bagchi, COO of MindTree). Sasken is going to meet me too. I’ve also travelled in Japan and New Zealand, talking about women’s issues and rights.

How should corporates in India wake up to this problem?

Your leaders are going to be companies like MindTree who are global players and are working with US and other foreign clients.

Do you think employees of the IT industry, where people do projects far away from home, work for long and late hours, are more vulnerable to this problem?

Quite frankly, when it comes to romance and sex and matters of the heart, otherwise intelligent people get stupid. People with PhDs and MBAs who can think their way through the most difficult e-business problems, can’t answer the question: ‘Should I leave this girl alone because she is my subordinate or should I ask her out?’ They have three choices. ‘Call my manager and ask what I should do, leave the girl alone, go for it.’Now what is it about ‘go for it’ that looks logical? But they do that and it’s a matter of being ignorant. It’s one of those things that was okay for a very long time. How is what you’re doing impacting your colleague, is the question you have to ask yourself.

Response may be sent to rasheeda@thehindu.co.in

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Business meets at strip clubs! Business meets at strip clubs!